Freedom to Learn

Nathan Cunneen on School Choice, Union Opposition, and Lessons Republicans Learned the Hard Way

• Ginny Gentles • Season 1 • Episode 5

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In this episode of Freedom to Learn, Nathan Cunneen, Texas State Director for the American Federation for Children, addresses the momentum behind the push for universal education freedom in the Lone Star State. Nathan shares his personal journey from a scholarship student in Florida to a leader in the Texas school choice movement. He discusses why school choice is crucial for families, and describes powerful opposition from rural superintendents, unions, and the education establishment. With overwhelming public support and the powerful leadership of Gov. Greg Abbott, could 2025 finally be the year Texas embraces Education Savings Accounts (ESAs)? Tune in to learn why Nathan believes this time, the wave of school choice is unstoppable.

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Ginny Gentles (00:00)

Welcome to Freedom to Learn, the podcast that champions choice in education, defends parental rights, and exposes the harm caused by school unions. I'm Ginny Gentles, Director of Education, Freedom, and Parental Rights at DFI, the Defense of Freedom Institute in Washington, DC.

Welcome back to Freedom to Learn. The Lone Star State is on track to pass a universal education freedom program during the 2025 legislative session. To give us a preview of what to expect when the state legislature convenes in January, we're joined today by Nathan Cunneen, the Texas State Director at the American Federation for Children. Nathan is a passionate advocate for education freedom, having grown up as a beneficiary of the Florida Tax Credit Scholarship Program. Before taking on his current role at AFC, Nathan was a member of the 2020 Future Leaders Fellowship Cohort, a program that trains school choice beneficiaries to become advocates. Nathan has worked on school choice efforts in multiple states, including Iowa, Idaho, and South Carolina. 

Stick around for the final segment of the Freedom to Learn podcast. Special Myth Busting guest Patrick Graff addresses the education freedom myth that schools that aren't residentially assigned public schools regularly reject and exclude students with disabilities.

Nathan Cunneen, welcome to Freedom to Learn. 

Nathan Cunneen (01:21)

Thanks for having me. Glad to be here. 

Ginny Gentles (01:23)

You're currently a leader in the Texas school choice movement, but you grew up in Florida, which is a state with abundant school choice options. Did your family take advantage of Florida's education freedom opportunities? 

Nathan Cunneen (01:34)

Absolutely. Funny enough, when I was a baby as early as two or three years old, my mother used to write letters to our legislators and she didn't know what school choice was at the time. She didn't know the difference between tax credit scholarship or a voucher or an ESA, but I've actually had the privilege to read some of these letters and she's asking her representative saying, “I should be able to send my son to whatever school is best for him.” “We should have that flexibility to choose the best school for his education.” 

And fortunately, I was growing up in a time where Florida, the Florida legislature led by Governor Jeb Bush passed the Florida Tax Credit Scholarship Program, which I was able to use for 11 years. And today is the largest school choice program in the entire country. 

So, I was very privileged to have that opportunity to go to a private school, so was my siblings, school choice educated all of us. I strongly believe that that ability to get that scholarship was what led me to become the first in my family to graduate from college. 

Ginny Gentles (02:43)

How did all that impact your career path? 

Nathan Cunneen (02:45)

Something I think the school choice movement misses sometimes is I had no idea that I was a scholarship student until I got to college. I wasn't aware that I was using a school choice scholarship. Since most of these programs are driven by income status, at least at the time in Florida, it was very uncommon for students to be aware that they were receiving an income preference scholarship. 

So once I discovered that school choice was even a policy issue in college, I was hugely interested in fighting for other students to have the same opportunity that I had. I was able to do that through the American Federation for Children's Future Leaders Fellowship program, which, Ginny, you were, you part of the original, like getting that spun up in the original cohort. I was in cohort two. It was really a wonderful opportunity and kind of changed my perspective on what I wanted to do after college and ultimately led to where I'm now doing this full-time and loving it. 

Ginny Gentles (03:48)

Well, for a long time in the school choice movement, we were dependent on parents alone to advocate for the creation of programs, to advocate for the protection of programs, because they were always under siege. 

It is a wonderful and exciting time in the school choice movement to know that we can call on you and the future leaders in this fellowship and beyond to say, “I benefited from these programs. It changed the trajectory of my educational experience and led to great career opportunities.” Why would you take this away?

So we're very thankful for the young people's voices. And I assume that the mothers who have been fighting for these programs for decades are thankful for the role that you all are playing too. 

So again, you grew up in Florida, but you're based in Texas. Right now, you're the Texas State Director for the American Federation for Children. What education freedom model is AFC hoping that Texas families will have? 

Nathan Cunneen (04:46)

Well, we are hoping that as early as the spring of 2025, that Texas will pass legislation to create a universal eligibility education savings account program that will prioritize low-income and special needs students, but ultimately make school choice available to every student in Texas. 

Texas has a robust education landscape right now. They have charter schools, they have magnet schools, they have limited open enrollment, but they do not have a private school choice program. 

In fact, they are one of the last Republican controlled states that has not yet passed a private school choice program. And I'm certainly not going to stop and neither is the American Federation for Children until every student in Texas is able to take advantage of the same opportunities that I had. And that's to choose the education that is best for them. We are riding a tremendous wave of momentum. And I am very optimistic that school choice is coming to Texas very soon.

Ginny Gentles (05:47)

Well, I heard you mentioned some existing education freedom or school choice options. So why is there a need for more? 

Nathan Cunneen (05:53)

Right. Well, would you ever want to limit the opportunities that a child has to get the best education possible to succeed? 

You know, I’m a fierce advocate of all forms of school choice. I think open enrollment is super important. I think charter schools are wonderful. I think magnet schools are great options for students to have. And I think that you should be able to take your education dollars and go to a private school if that's what's best for your student. 

It doesn't make sense to me why we would want to draw some arbitrary line somewhere on the list and say, “These are the only options that we're going to give to students.” I think that we should be in the business of maximizing opportunity. And that's exactly what we're trying to do in Texas with the passage of ESAs.

Ginny Gentles (06:37)

Well, are Texas parents clamoring for these expanded options? 

Nathan Cunneen (06:40)

We have mandate after mandate after mandate. 

Independent polling done completely outside of any particular advocacy organization conducted by the University of Texas, the University of Houston, is showing that overwhelming percentages of Texans support school choice. In fact, every single racial and political demographic supports school choice, Black, White, Hispanic, Asian. Democrat, Republican, Independent. The latest numbers that I saw showed anywhere between 69 and 76% for support for school choice across the board, depending on what exact question that you're asking. 

Beyond that, we had a ballot question on the Republican primary ballot in 2022 that showed upwards of 80% of Republican primary voters support school choice.

School choice was just a major factor in the November 5th elections this year, and we saw school choice prevail at the ballot box again. 11 anti-school choice incumbents were rejected by their constituents largely because of their opposition to school choice. 

We just have mandate after mandate and data point after data point that shows families want this. School choice is coming to Texas. It's just a matter of time, and I think the time is now.

Ginny Gentles (08:02)

I've been around in the school choice movement for a long time, as you know, and I've heard the “School choices coming to Texas” line before, and it seems different this time, but the opponents are the same. So who's opposing education freedom, education savings accounts, the idea of untethering education from residentially assigned schools? 

Nathan Cunneen (08:23)

The reason that it's different is because of the overwhelming support we have from Governor Abbott. He's really like in my opinion, setting the standards for what leaders should be doing on the issue of school choice, not just endorsing opponents, endorsing challengers in primaries against the anti-school choice Republicans, but actually spending $7 million of his own campaign cash to advance school choice during the elections. It's incredible. I think that leaders should be paying attention to what Governor Abbott is doing and following his example.

One of the other things that Governor Abbott is doing with our help is opposing the bureaucratic education monopoly that exists in the state of Texas and that has had a stranglehold on the legislature for the last 20 or 30 years. The school choice movement has had Texas on its list of places where we couldn’t pass a big school choice program for decades and it has never succeeded. And the reason for that is because there are a very well-connected, very powerful group of advocacy organizations and individual superintendents and school board associations that have come together to oppose school choice and to keep the system as it is. They don't want the system to change. 

As we experience at the federal level all the time, they want more money without any other changes, without, you know, needing to give anything up or change anything about the way the system operates. And ultimately that's not a policy prescription that puts students first. That's not a prescription that puts what students and families want or need into any kind of preference. And that's why, you know, we have such strong support for school choices is because we are actually speaking to what Texas students and families need to succeed, not just keeping things the same while throwing more money into that system.

Ginny Gentles (10:20)

Rural superintendents. That's what often gets mentioned as the leading opponents that legislators listen to in Texas. I Googled “Superintendents,” “Texas,” “Salaries,” and it's very easy to download a spreadsheet and it seems to be over 300 superintendents make over $200,000 a year. 

So some of them are leading massive, very highly complex school districts. They deserve to be very well-compensated. This is a tough job. Some of them aren't. These are tiny, less complex districts. So this makes sense for some and not for others. 

Why are those rural superintendents so powerful? I wonder sometimes, are the rural superintendents representing the needs of the families? Are they truly concerned about losing students? Or are they concerned about losing their very well-compensated positions?

Nathan Cunneen (11:18)

Texas really sees itself as its own place and doesn't want to hear what Florida or, you know, Iowa or Idaho are doing and all of those things. Some of the rural fears that that really are talking points that don't show up in reality. First of all, you know, eight out of the 10 most rural states in the country have passed school choice programs. Public schools in rural communities that have school choice are doing wonderful.

The supply of private schools in rural places, especially in places like Florida that's had school choice for a long time, the capacity of private schools are increasing over time to meet student demand. Schools aren't closing down. Parents are figuring out how to address real transportation problems. We're very interested in ESAs because in most states, ESAs can be used for transportation to help out rural communities. These sort of myths that are pushed by these superintendents very often don't show up in the real-world experience of what we're seeing in other states. 

Now, to get to the superintendent's piece and the superintendent's pay piece, we are also seeing a number of stories of superintendents receiving multimillion-dollar settlement payments to leave their jobs. They're taking settlement packages for when they have been rejected and voted out by their local school boards and kindly given a very large payment to go away. Many of these superintendents have gargantuan jobs. They're leading massive school districts. Texas has some of the largest school districts in the entire country. 

I am not against superintendents that are doing a wonderful job being compensated fairly. I am of the mind that if you are delivering for students, then I want you to be financially rewarded for that. The problem is, in my view, that so many of these superintendents who are receiving these massive salaries are opposing school choice options for kids while saying, “We can't afford it.” They are making the argument that somehow school choice is too expensive, but then simultaneously receiving these gargantuan salaries, and in many cases, without the requisite results that accompany that huge dollar figure. 

That's really where the problem lies for me is, you know, we are trying to create an education system that puts the students first. When you have adults that are making these massive sums of money while simultaneously opposing options for families, it's hard to argue that that system is currently putting students in the driver's seat in terms of what's important from a policy perspective. 

So, you know, I do know a few superintendents that have done what many of the superintendents in Florida did 20 years ago.

You're probably familiar, Ginny, there's a famous story out of Miami-Dade County where a superintendent stood up in front of the press and said, “The wave of school choice is coming. We can either get flattened by it, or we can learn to ride the wave.” In his district, Miami-Dade, started to prioritize public school choices, tried to create flexible options for families, and fought tooth and nail to keep the students within the public school system. And they were massively successful.

Miami-Dade School system is one of the most successful urban school districts in the entire country. And my lesson to the rural superintendents and the urban superintendents in Texas is that learn from their example. The wave of school choice is coming and we can do what's best for students by prioritizing options and listening to what parents really want. 

Ginny Gentles (14:52)

Okay, so we've addressed the rural superintendents, what's going on with that dynamic. Let's also address the unions because even though people will claim, “There's no such thing as a teachers union in Texas,” that in fact is not true. So what's the role that the unions are playing? 

Nathan Cunneen (15:08)

The unions have massive grassroots organization. People say that there are no unions in Texas because there is an anti-collective bargaining position. But trust me, that does not weaken the power of the unions in any way. They are a massive component of Texas. They have the ear of every association in Texas. They have the ear of the public school consultancy class, which is massively important and powerful in Texas. And ultimately, they have the ear of many in the legislature who have, especially some of these rural Republicans who have successfully blocked school choice in the past. 

Thankfully, as I mentioned a little bit earlier, you know, so many of those Republicans have been rejected by their constituents who are demanding school choice. And of the 21 Republicans that voted to stop school choice last year, only seven are returning to the legislature this year. So, you know, as powerful as the teachers unions are and continue to be, they failed at the ballot box this year. They lost and, you know, school choice has a mandate that we're going to continue to run with.

Ginny Gentles (16:17)

I'm pretty sure that you've heard a few of the talking points that are out there opposing education savings accounts, opposing school choice, some that are very Texas-specific. So you've addressed that a little when it comes to the fear-mongering around rural schools and rural districts. 

Let's talk about this idea that there'll be no more Friday night lights if we have school choice. This is such a Texas-specific thing. What's going on with that argument?

Nathan Cunneen (16:45)

I just think it's so ludicrous to even suggest that there is anything that could stop Friday Night Lights in Texas. I don't think that there's a single thing that could stop Texas from having Friday Night Lights. I mean, Friday Night Lights is a quintessential component of Texas culture. And the illusion that giving families a choice in education will somehow hurt that I just think is ridiculous.

Ginny Gentles (17:16)

And you're saying that as a former high school football player, right? Like you're very pro-Friday Night Lights. 

Nathan Cunneen (17:21)

Yes. But from a policy perspective, I mean, this is just blatant fear-mongering. And this sort of gets to your previous question too, Ginny, about the teachers unions and the education establishment and what they really want. 

The school choice legislation that was working its way through the legislature last year would have created a school choice program, would have allocated $500 million for that school choice program. Simultaneously, it would have sent $7 billion extra to public schools, and it would have given every teacher in Texas a $4,000 raise. This is the legislation that the teachers unions and the education establishments and the rural superintendents opposed because of the school choice component. 90 plus percent of the money was going into the public school system. But they want to stop choice because they see that giving families the freedom to move from school to school is a direct threat to their power and it's a direct threat to this current status quo of the system. 

The reality is $500 million for school choice isn't going to put a dent, isn't going to do anything to public school budgets, it's not going to hurt Friday Night Lights. The special interests that claim to represent the interests of the schools and the students said “No” to almost $10 billion because they wanted to stop school choice, and I think that was a huge mistake. 

Ginny Gentles (18:47)

Another thing that we hear from the opponents of education freedom is that school choice, education freedom, vouchers hurt students with special needs, that not only do they not benefit from these programs, but somehow they're hurt. Could you address that concern? 

Nathan Cunneen (19:03)

Right. This is another little bit of fear mongering that doesn't show up in real life, or the real history of school choice is assisting the students who need it most is a core component of the school choice movement. I feel very strongly, my organization feels very strongly, that special needs students should be put first in line to receive school choice scholarships. 

Every piece of legislation that has moved through the Texas legislature in the last two years has put special needs students into a preference category so that they can access school choice first. 

But I think beyond that is in a more, you know, existential sense. Why would you ever want to limit opportunities for students? And I'm happy to keep coming back to this point over and over again is, you know, one of the things that we hear from opponents is, well, there aren't a lot of private schools that accommodate special needs students. First of all, that's not true in Texas either. 88% of private schools accept students with special needs in Texas. But even beyond that is why don't we leave that decision up to the parents and the families and the students? Why are we trying to limit and constrict opportunities and options for families in Texas? It doesn't make any sense to me. We want to pass school choice legislation that gives all families, especially special needs families, that option, that choice, and we think they should be front of the line. 

Ginny Gentles (20:35)

What can we expect or anticipate from the upcoming legislative session in Texas? Texas meets every two years. The new legislative session is coming up. What's going to happen? 

Nathan Cunneen (20:45)

Right. Well, this is Governor Abbott's, you know, one of Governor Abbott's top priorities. We expect him to name school choice as an emergency item, which allows the legislature to work on a bill before passing their budget for the year. So we expect that school choice will be one of the first issues that is worked on this session. 

Lieutenant Governor Dan Patrick has also named school choice as his number one priority. And we expect that school choice will likely be one of the first pieces of legislation to move through the Senate. The Senate has successfully passed school choice, I believe, four times in the last two years. And we expect that once again, the Senate will be leaders on school choice and pass this bill. 

The timing is a little bit more difficult to predict in the House. It usually takes the House a little bit more time to get organized, but we do expect that school choice will remain a top issue and top piece of legislation in the House as well. And ultimately, we believe that we have the votes to be successful as the result of this election cycle.

Ginny Gentles (21:53)

What I always hear about Texas is that the rural superintendents and the Texas State House are the ones who get in the way of education savings accounts becoming a reality. What's different about the Texas State House this year? 

Nathan Cunneen (22:06)

I just think the election results are so groundbreaking that school choice is not a reality that legislators can ignore anymore. 

You know, as I said earlier in our conversation, there were 21 Republicans who stood in opposition to school choice last year, only seven of them are returning to Austin. And I think that the lesson, the message from voters came through loud and clear was that, “If you're not going to support school choice, you're not going to retain your seat very long.” The majority of those 14 Republicans who were defeated lost in their elections and a few just straight up retired because they didn't want to go through the challenge of having to explain their crazy position to voters. And I think that that's the lesson. I think there's a lot of Republicans who maybe were on the fence last year or maybe even voted against school choice last year who are looking around and saying, “Hey, am I going to continue to stand in opposition to what so many of my constituents clearly want and end up like those 14 guys who aren't returning to the legislature anymore?”

I think that that's a clear change from where we've been in the past. And again, I think Governor Abbott's commitment to this issue and his willingness to go after members who oppose school choice represents something that we've never seen in the state of Texas before. 

Ginny Gentles (21:30)

I noticed during the last legislative session that he was traveling around the state on a very busy schedule, holding meetings, talking to people about this. Do you anticipate his level of engagement to be like that this time as well?

Nathan Cunneen (23:43)

Oh absolutely. Governor Abbott is a true believer about school choice, and he is really passionate about creating those opportunities for families. And he wants to talk to them. He wants to hear their perspective and get their feedback. Last year, as you alluded to, he did tours all over the state of Texas, stopping at schools, meeting with families. And I expect that he'll be doing the exact same thing. 

Ginny Gentles (24:06)

It's going to be really fun to watch everything unfold in early 2025. When is the Texas legislative session?

Nathan Cunneen (24:13)

January 14th is the start date and it runs through May, although, you know, fingers crossed we won't need it. But last year or last session, Governor Abbott called multiple special sessions to retain the legislature to work on the issue of school choice. I'm very hopeful that the lesson of the past two years is, hey, we just need to work on this thing right out of the gate and pass school choice. Then we won't have to come back to Austin in September and October and November like last year. 

Ginny Gentles (24:44)

Defensive Freedom Institute, DFI, is focused on helping the D.C. policy-making community understand the benefits of school choice and education freedom, as well as the challenges to enacting and implementing the programs. What's the one lesson that they should draw from the Texas experience? 

Nathan Cunneen (25:01)

Well, you asked for one. I'm going to be presumptuous and give you two anyway. 

I think the most critically missed thing about school choice is that we have overwhelming empirical academic data that shows when you introduce school choice, when you introduce competition into the education marketplace, everybody does better. We have extremely clear data on this, that when you empower families with choice in their education, public schools get better, private schools get better, and the students do better. I think that piece is so often left out of the conversation. And I think that's a mistake. 

The other thing that I would add as sort of not maybe as advice or encouragement to the lawmakers in D.C., is to recognize that the politicians who have stood up for school choice, who have stood up for parents and really fought to create options for students, have been rewarded politically time and again and again and again. An example of this in Florida is, you know, Governor Ron DeSantis just barely won his first gubernatorial election with the help of school choice moms. Four years later, after championing school choice, he won in a landslide victory. 

Governor Abbott has, you know, reaped tremendous political benefits of supporting school choice, including being able to defeat so many of these rural incumbent legislators who oppose school choice. And now, you know, he has a clear path to achieving his policy agenda. We see in states all over the country that, you know, voters are more inclined to vote for a politician that supports school choice than they are to a politician that doesn't support school choice. 

So, you know, I think in D.C., especially where so much of professional politics is driven by what is politically prudent, the lesson is that supporting school choice and doing the right thing for families is also what's best for your political career. And I hope that everybody learns from that example and continues to put students first because ultimately that's what's best politically as well. 

Ginny Gentles (27:13)

How can the DC policymaking community be supportive?

Nathan Cunneen (27:17)

Well, one of the things that I'm sure you're talking about all the time, Ginny, is the Educational Choice for Children Act. There's already been a lot of buzz that is being generated about this, which would be a federal tax credit program. You're probably more in the know on this than I am, but my understanding is that the Trump administration, the incoming Trump administration is very interested in passing, you know, a federal school choice program that would ultimately bring school choice to states where the state government is falling behind and not putting students first. That's something that I'm very excited about. And I think that DC lawmakers should embrace the opportunity to pass a broad-based federal school choice program that will give more students like me the opportunity to succeed. 

Ginny Gentles (28:05)

Nathan, I've so enjoyed talking with you. How can people follow your work and keep up on what's going on in Texas in early 2025?

Nathan Cunneen (28:12)

Sure. Well, they can follow me on Twitter @nathancanneen, spelled the same way. I will be covering and doing a fair bit of reporting on Texas all through the next legislative session. I also encourage listeners to visit FederationForChildren.org, which is our organization's website. We will be posting all of our press releases and things about Texas there and hopefully continuing to move the ball forward until every student in Texas and then the rest of the country has that same opportunity that I had when I was a kid. 

Ginny Gentles (28:47)

Looking forward to following along. Nathan, thank you so much for your commitment to education freedom for all that you're doing to ensure that families across the country have the options that you and your siblings had while growing up in Florida. And thank you for joining Freedom to Learn. 

Nathan Cunneen (29:00)

Thank you, Ginny. I really appreciate it.

Ginny Gentles (29:04)

Patrick Graff, Director of Legislative Policy with the American Federation for Children, is back with us today to address pervasive school choice myths. 

There are claims out there that school choice or education freedom programs exclude students with special needs. I know that that is not true. For years, there have been programs like what was called the McKay Scholarship Program in Florida and other programs specifically designed to provide school choice for students with disabilities. How would you respond to that claim that schools are excluding students with disabilities and that these don't serve students with special needs?

Patrick Graff (29:45)

Yeah, Ginny, I think this is an important one to confront head on. Not every public school is set up to serve every child with, especially more severe, special education needs.

So for example, there might be specific schools within a school district that are there to provide services for kids who have those particular needs, and so parents are also not able to take their students to every single school within that school district. In general, private schools do an overwhelmingly good job accepting students who come to their school, but also want to ensure a great fit between what those parents are looking for and what that school can provide. 

There are private schools that are set up specifically for populations of those students who are not well served within the public school system. But not every private school is going to have those services available. And so, when they talk about, “Well, it's the school choosing,” it's really what they're pointing to as a mismatch between what schools can offer and what parents need for their kids. And the great thing about school choice is there are more than one private school. There's lots of options where parents can go and find that best match between what schools are providing and what their kids' needs are.

On the public school side, you know the reality is that there have been many notable examples of public schools denying parents’ ability to choose that school and leading to kind of severe consequences. So for example, there's an infamous story of a mom in Ohio who was literally put in jail for enrolling her child in a public school outside of her assigned district. You know, in many states, they have a form of public school choice called open enrollment, but students with disabilities are often not a part of that policy. And so, they're not able to travel to other school districts. They're also denied that option within the public school system. 

If your child has a disability and they use a voucher to go to private school, it's actually considered parental placement under IDEA, the Individuals Disabilities in Education Act. And what that means is that the public schools are still required to provide equitable services to that child, even in the private school. And so there is an ability with school choice for private schools to still serve kids with disabilities, and many, that's a part of their mission to do that, and still receive services from the public school district. That's often very unpopular with the public school district because they don't want to spend those resources to do that outside of their own system, but that is happening all over the place. It is not the case that these kids are being systematically denied from private schools in choice states.

Ginny Gentles (32:26)

Freedom to Learn is a production of the Defense of Freedom Institute. You can learn more about DFI at dfipolicy.org. If you have feedback or suggestions for future podcasts, please reach out to us at podcast@dfipolicy.org. If you enjoyed today's episode, please subscribe and leave a rating and review wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.